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Author Topic:   Complete Brake Upgrade Article
Danny
Member
posted 09-16-2001 12:08 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Danny   Click Here to Email Danny     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
The objective of this article is to provide you with the knowledge and identity of components needed to vastly improve the braking capability of our '78-'79 Ford Broncos. This upgrade will not require drilling, cutting, grinding, welding or fabrication. We will be retaining the 5 lug, 15" wheels and the original axles. I have spent six months researching brake fundamentals/hydraulic principals and investigating the necessary components.
Let's begin with the brake pedal and work our way down to the rear brakes. The pedal arm is well suited for our upgrade project. What's important here is called pedal ratio. It is found by measuring the distance from the pivot point (fulcrum) to the power booster rod attaching point. (dim. A) Now measure the distance from the pivot point (fulcrum) to the center of the brake pedal pad. (dim. B) Simply divide dim. A into dim. B and we get a pedal ratio of 6.5:1 for a '78 Bronco. The fulcrum linkage (.526) is the opposite half of the calculation and gives us a final pedal ratio of 3.41:1. (6.5 x .526 = 3.41:1) On a power brake system, this is sufficient leverage, so do not modify the brake pedal arm because too much pedal ratio will cause a spongy pedal because of high mechanical leverage. In '79 the pedal ratio was 3.5:1. This becomes the final pedal ratio because they didn't need to overcome the nonexisting fulcrum linkage. This is the only component we will not be upgrading. The next part of the system is the vacuum booster. I'm sure you found out by now, the OEM 11" vacuum booster is simply too weak to assist in pressurizing the hydraulic system. The '78-'79 Ford F350 tandem booster (dual 9 1/4" diapragm) is a bolt in retrofit with twice the power output. If your Bronco is a '78, then it is a short push rod booster because of the fulcrum linkage (in between booster and pedal arm) used in '78 and earlier to reduce pedal travel. A '78 Bronco will use the booster from a '78 F350 4WD or 2WD. If your Bronco is a '79 then it is a long push rod booster because it attaches directly across to the brake pedal arm. A '79 Bronco will use the booster from a '79 F350 2WD only! Also, the '79 F350 with cruise control was yet a different booster. There is a date code of 11/1/78 involved in distinguishing the different length push rod boosters. Most auto part stores can order this booster for you. The largest remanufacturing company is A-1 Cardone and it's part #54-73311 for a '78 model and part #54-73350 for a '79 model (without cruise control). I couldn't find any information regarding cruise control boosters, other than the eyelet on end of push rod is triangular shaped. The price range varies from around $100-$165 with core charge. There are other options in obtaining this booster, the point is you will definately need it. One quick tip; if you own a '78 Bronco with a 460 engine, you will be able to use tall valve covers (4 1/2") without a body lift, because the F350 tandem booster is smaller in diameter than the Bronco booster and the '78 fulcrum linkage (mounting bracket) positions the booster up higher.
Now let's discuss the master cylinder. The Bronco master cylinder has a narrower bolt pattern, thus will not fit the F350 booster. We will be using the matching F350 master cylinder. The increased 1 1/16" bore will be beneficial to us when we install the larger front disc brake calipers (later). The F350 master cylinder locates the brake lines toward the fender rather than the engine, which provides more room around the engine and looks neater. Simply twist the lines over to the opposite side of new master cylinder. The only change needed here is replacing the line nut fitting on the chamber for the front brakes. The Bronco master cylinder uses a 9/16"-18 threaded nut and the F350 master cylinder uses a 3/8"-24 threaded nut. The line nut fitting for the rear brakes is the same on both at 7/16"-24. This is a simple task with a double flaring tool kit. A quick tip; when bench bleeding your new master cylinder, the lines must be submerged in the brake fluid chambers in order to effectively remove all air. Allow me to clear up a common misconception about master cylinders. A larger bore provides more volume but less pressure. A smaller bore provides less volume but more pressure. So you should never increase master cylinder bore diameter unless you're also installing larger brake calipers to accept it. If you do, your brakes will only feel better because the added volume shortened your pedal stroke and made it more firm. In reality however, the same calipers are receiving less pressure which just made your brakes worse. I purchased a new master cylinder, Wagner part #F97938.
The front brake calipers on our Broncos are weak because of their small 2 7/8" pistons. The phenolic (plastic) piston is also undesirable. These calipers are another major factor of our Broncos poor braking. The brake calipers we want are off of '73-'78 Ford fullsize cars. For the sake of arguing, I will be calling these fullsize car calipers the Thunderbird calipers. These calipers have a thicker casting, a huge 3 3/32" steel piston and are a direct fit replacement on our Dana 44 axles! The Thunderbird calipers even use the same brake pads. What will amaze you more is the clamping force of these calipers. In order to put its power in proper perspective, we need to understand what's called a caliper's piston area. Caliper piston area is the measure of a brake calipers clamping force. It is found by first finding the decimal equivalency of the piston diameter and multiply it by itself to find its "squared" value. Then multiply that figure by .785 and the result is the caliper piston area. Let's first compute the Bronco's caliper piston area. 2.875 X 2.875 X .785 = 6.48 square inches of clamping force. If we compute the dual piston caliper of an F350, the only difference is finding the piston area and multiply it by 2, because this dual piston caliper uses two smaller 2 3/16" pistons instead of one large one. 2.187 X 2.187 X .785 X 2 = 7.50 square inches. As you can see, the F350 dual piston caliper has over one square inch of piston area and in terms of hydraulic pressure, one square inch is a very potent difference in clamping force. Now let's compute the Thunderbird caliper with its 3 3/32" piston. 3.094 X 3.094 X .785 = 7.51 square inches of clamping power! Remarkably, we have just swapped in a brake caliper equal in strength to an F350 dual piston caliper and it fits inside the 5 lug, 15" wheel! The only implication is plumbing the Thunderbird caliper. It has a 7/16"-24 inlet hole as oppose to a Bronco caliper having a 3/8"-24 hole. The Thunderbird caliper also never used a banjo bolt, the hose itself threaded into the caliper with a crush washer. We need the ninety degree angle a banjo bolt provides, in order to clear the upper ball joint on our Dana 44 axle. Since a banjo bolt was never used and 7/16"-24 is unusual, we need to convert to a #3 AN fitting. Aeroquip part #FCM2929 is the fitting adapter you'll need along with the aluminum crush washer part #FCM3513. Now you need a #3 AN stainless steel flex hose with a real tight ninety degree bend on one end and straight on the other. I chose Earl's Performance part #630117-14 because it met the criteria and is 14" long. On the opposite end of the flex hose you'll need Aeroquip part #FCM2936 to adapt it to the 3/16" inverted flare steel line. Both Thunderbird and Bronco calipers use the same bleeder screws and brake pads. I purchased a set of rebuilt calipers, King part #6083 & #6084.
The rotors will need to be the cross drilled type because brake fade will now become a problem on severe braking. The cross drilled rotors weren't needed on a stock Bronco because there wasn't even enough clamping force to induce brake fade. With the added pressure of the larger booster and increased clamping force of the calipers, brake fade would be prevalent. The cross drilled rotors will eliminate this totally. I used Autospeciality Power Stop rotors part #AR-8513L & #AR-8513R.
There's a multitude of aftermarket performance brake pads on the market, I chose Performance Friction part #0504. They're a carbon metallic pad, long lasting, rotor friendly and possess a high friction coefficient. I'm happy with the brake pads although they need one hard brake application to heat them up initially. They grip very well under severe braking.
The combination valve that bolts to the inside of your frame rail can be either removed or "gutted" out. The reason why we need to bypass the combination valve is because the rear disc brake kit uses an adjustable proportioning valve. The combination valve got its name from being three valves in one. The front section is the metering valve, the middle is the brake warning light switch and the rear section is the proportioning valve. I chose to retain this valve because it serves as a juntion point for the four lines that couple to it. I also wanted the brake warning light switch to remain operational. Remove the valve and clamp it in a vise. Remove the front cap nut, spring and plunger assembly of the metering valve. You only need to discard the rubber washer toward the center of the valve. We are doing this to render the metering valve useless, because it only "holds off" pressure to the front disc brakes until the slower rear drum brakes come into action. The metering valve was designed to balance the actuation of disc and drum brakes. We will not be using drum brakes so it's function is not required. Next remove the bottom rear cap nut of the proportioning valve and discard the spring. The proportioning valve was designed to substantially reduce pressure to the small wheel cylinders. Again, its function is detrimental to disc brakes which need to operate at a much higher pressure. Bleeding brakes will no longer require pulling the bleed rod outward.
As far as rear disc brakes go, they are absolutely necessary. To put it in plain english, drum brakes suck! I'm not even going to waste the ink in my pen explaining why. There are many rear disc brake conversion kits on the market that all I can say is pick one you like and install it. I used the Ford Motorsports SVO kit #M-2300-G because it was inexpensive and powerful. A word of caution; this kit only fits the "new style" Ford 9" housing ends. (3.56" X 2" bolt pattern) I have a Dana 60, 35 spline semi-floating rear axle made by DTS. It is made using a Dana 60 center section with thick wall axle tubes and Ford 9" housing ends. (They use Ford 9" housing ends because the original 5 lug semi-floating Dana 60's used in muscle cars long ago by Mopar & Ford, actually had smaller bearings than the Ford 9" housing ends.) The adjustable proportioning valve I used with this kit was a Wilwood unit sold by Summit Racing part #G3905. I only needed to reduce full hydraulic pressure by two turns on the adjustable proportioning valve.
Inline Tube part #FT1002 makes a complete stainless steel line and flex hose kit for a stock Bronco. The stainless steel braided flex hoses can be custom length for a lift kit and provide a firm brake pedal because they resist expansion under pressure like rubber hoses do. (Expanding rubber hoses cause pressure loss to calipers.) All the lines are preformed and double flared as required by law. This kit is a great starting point for this upgrade project.
When it comes time to bleed the brakes, I found the Speed Bleeders made by Russell part #639590 were like a dream come true. They are bleeder screws with a check valve machined into them. So you will be able to pressure bleed your brakes by yourself! They work perfectly. All you need to do is crack open each one 1/8 of a turn, attach a 5/32" hose into a bottle and then enter the vehicle to pump the brakes. After, just tighten the bleeder screw and move on to the next one closest to the master cylinder. I absolutely love these things because my wife hated to bleed the brakes with me. (She would pump the pedal.)
Brake fluid is not created equal. It is extremely hygroscopic meaning it absorbs moisture very easily. Always use DOT 4 brake fluid because of its higher boiling point. I used Castrol LMA (Low Moisture Activity) DOT 4 brake fluid and bleed the brakes twice a year to flush out the fluid.
I have personally performed this entire upgrade on my '78 Bronco and the results were incredible. I realize the cost of this entire upgrade is expensive but well worth the ability to lock up my 35" Pro Comp Mud Terrain tires. Anyone knows the larger tires render our vehicles unsafe and dangerous in a panic stop. I purchased the OEM components at my local auto parts store and the aftermarket parts from Summit Racing or Jegs.
Disclaimer: I highly recommend that all work be accomplished by a competent and licensed mechanic or automotive repair shop. I will not be held liable for poor workmanship or inferior quality components.
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Danny

[This message has been edited by Danny (edited 09-28-2001).]

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1911Bronco
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posted 09-16-2001 03:42 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for 1911Bronco   Click Here to Email 1911Bronco     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
WoW Danny...talk about doing your homework...thank you for a very detailed tech article....I hope Paul adds this one to the front pages.

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histrung
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posted 09-16-2001 11:03 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for histrung   Click Here to Email histrung     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
First off. Forgive me since I'm a rookie wrencher and my questions may see academic.

I have a 79 Bronco. Went and got the 79 F-350 Booster and master cylinder. Putting the booster on the push rod was about 1/4-1/2 inch too far in even after I took off the brake light switch... So I guess that I'm going to take it back and try the 78 F-350 booster, since that push rod is shorter.??? Does it use the same master cylinder? I could get the push rod in the brake pedel mech. but I had to push it in and then attatch, which I'm assuming isn't such a good idea as it has no free play?

When I order a disk brake conversion does it come with the proportioning valve?

Where would I get the hardware or how do I change the brake lines that go into the master cylinder on the opposite side?

Where would I get the hardware to attach the front Car calipers?

Thank you
Russell

------------------
"Get your stinkin paws
off me, you damn dirty
ape!"

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histrung
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posted 09-16-2001 11:12 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for histrung   Click Here to Email histrung     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
First off. Forgive me since I'm a rookie wrencher and my questions may see academic.

I have a 79 Bronco. Went and got the 79 F-350 Booster and master cylinder. Putting the booster on the push rod was about 1/4-1/2 inch too far in even after I took off the brake light switch... So I guess that I'm going to take it back and try the 78 F-350 booster, since that push rod is shorter.??? Does it use the same master cylinder? I could get the push rod in the brake pedel mech. but I had to push it in and then attatch, which I'm assuming isn't such a good idea as it has no free play?

When I order a disk brake conversion does it come with the proportioning valve?

Where would I get the hardware or how do I change the brake lines that go into the master cylinder on the opposite side?

Where would I get the hardware to attach the front Car calipers?

Thank you
Russell

------------------
"Get your stinkin paws
off me, you damn dirty
ape!"

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axaviere
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posted 09-17-2001 01:41 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for axaviere   Click Here to Email axaviere     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
dang Danny, it was worth the wait, i am going to do the 8 lug conversion to my D44 with parts from a 79 F250 and swap in a D60 8 lug rear and add discs from a used TSM kit that a friend has after he upgraded to a 10.25 Sterling. the only thing i may do is use smaller rear calipers so the Ebrake cable is easier to attach, but i ahvent seen them yet, so it may be ok as is. but i am going to use a little of your info and a little of OX's. thanks for the great post. AXE

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Bronc N Stein 79 Custom with a 4" lift,'87 460, and some tires on 15x10's still working on the details & taking suggestions

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OX
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posted 09-17-2001 10:55 AM           Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Danny

Great digging dude!!!, this is the kind of info I like to see. Much better than high dollar kits where you have to buy everything custom.

Have a couple question/comments;

Was wondering how you got a 5.5:1 ratio on the pedal. The distance from the upper pivot point on pedal to hole for brake booster rod is 4 inches and the distance from hole for brake booster rod to bottom of brake pedal is 11 inches. This gives you a ratio of 2.75 (or 3.75 if you use 15/4). Are you counting the fulcrum setup that 78's have in your 5.5:1 ratio and if so, why did ford switch to the 2.75 ratio in 79 and then to a 3.28 (11.5/3.5) ratio in 80 and up trucks.

Did that dually booster come in 4WD's? Everyone that I've talked to in the past has always said it was from a 2WD. I guess the better question is did they even make a 4WD dually in 78/79? I know no factory 460's were put in 4WD trucks in 78/79 and I would guess those that wantd dually's would have wanted a 460 too?? (Yes, some have said they got factory 460's in 78/79 trucks, but it was anything but common and no one has shown me proof with serial #'s and or build sheets).

What have you turned up on pressure ratios (dia of MC vs calipers)? Also, why wouldn't you use a MC like the 86 Mark VII MC (1-1/8 bore) that was designed for 4 wheel disk (has larger reservior for rear disk brakes, like front brakes) and was used with 73mm (2.87") front calipers and guessing around 2" rear calipers (so overall that setup has less caliper and more MC area than F250/350 setup). Obviously the bronco is about 1000 lbs heavier than Mark VII, but I'm just curious what your research came up with??

Good find on the car calipers!! and although the same area as the twin piston calipers, I don't agree they would provide the same amount of braking. The twin pistons distribute the force to both ends of the brake pad so more of the overall piston area is actually touching "brake pad area" and the two pistons on either end help keep the pad from ****ing, making the pad be more uniform against the rotor.

As for rotors, I have used cross drilled/countersunk rotors of 2 of my cars and they both developed heat realted stress cracks around the holes. Many road race organizations outright ban cross drilled rotors as they can crack severally (like in half :-)) in very high demand situtiaons. Some high end german cars use them from the factory, but the rotors are designed (thermally) for the holes from the outset and materails used are of much higher quality over the std cast iron brake rotor we have. Add to it that most of who go to substantially bigger tires are going to go offroad and even if you do mostly rock crawling you are going to hit sand roads and/or water crossings/mud holes once in a while. I could see mud/sand getting in the vents of rotors and then into the cross drilled holes or directly into the cross drilled holes when the hole is not under the brake pad and once fully clogged up start wearing grooves in the pads. If I were to get something other than stock faced rotors, I'd go for either dimpled and/or slotted rotors. Since I run mostly mud, I personally would not use any rotor with indentations or holes. It's hard enough to keep crap from betwen pad and rotor as it is :-)

On the combiantion valve, I have heard the front valve was actually a residual valve??? that keeps between 2-10 PSI in the lines so the pads do not come away from the rotors too far after braking. TSM sells these as inline valves and I do not have them with either of my rear disk kits. After not driving the bronc for a couple days, my first brake pedal application allows a whole bunch of pedal travel and then after that they are fine until a complete cool down and couple days none use. Have you used residual valves in your system and if not, why not??

Again, thanks for doing all the digging on this system. Sounds like a great upgrade for those that want a bolt on upgraded system without having to swap lug pattern.

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Danny
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posted 09-17-2001 02:55 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Danny   Click Here to Email Danny     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Please read my article again because I made one correction concerning the '79 F350 booster. (I've also added useful information through out the article.) I sincerely apologize for any inconvenience I may have caused because of the one inaccuracy.


OX, I will reply to your good questions soon! In the meantime do not deter from my instuctions because I have a good explanation for EVERY component I used. Thank you.

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OX
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posted 09-17-2001 07:15 PM           Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Too late!!!! I've already heavily detered and since 2 out of 3 of my broncs are 8 lug, it'll be tough to go back :-). My "tow" bronc is pretty much stock (drivetrain wise) and in need of heavily upgraded brakes. I am fairly sure it will also be going 8 lug soon, if for any other reason that I feel about the 9" how you feel about drum brakes!! (I think it sucks!!) Looking forward to further discussion.

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histrung
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posted 09-18-2001 04:04 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for histrung   Click Here to Email histrung     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Thanks for the new part numbers. I went to the auto parts store and after ordering the correct one (measured it just to be sure, was still 1/4 inch longer than the stock brake booster push rod).

Tried to put the master cylinder on and it didn't fit. We tried 3 different 79 F350 master cylinders and the same, bolts on Booster wider than holes on master cylinder. We tried a 78 F-350 master cylinder and it fit perfectly. Go figure?!? Yes I'm sure the booster was a 79... ha ha.

The new parts bolted right in. YIPPIEE! I have such a feeling of satisfaction, even though I've a real long way from being finished. But the first step is done.

Danny, thanks for you research and hard work. It is really apprecieated here. I would have never done this upgrade on my own (as I don't know squat), but with your help I'm confident that I'll get through it, and have some whoop ass brakes!

On to the next step.
Russell

------------------
"Get your stinkin paws
off me, you damn dirty
ape!"

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FatChanceSlim
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posted 09-18-2001 12:54 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for FatChanceSlim   Click Here to Email FatChanceSlim     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
I have a question about this conversion. Is there a way to do this incrementally or should all of these steps be done at once. Can I just start with the new booster and get an inprovement over stock and wait on the other steps until later? What other parts of this conversion could be done one step at a time?

Thanks!

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Danny
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posted 09-18-2001 01:13 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Danny   Click Here to Email Danny     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
You misread my article. I said you must use the "matching" master cylinder for a '79 F350 2WD booster. You were trying to fit the unmatched '79 F350 4WD master cylinder. I am very happy to have helped out!

------------------

Danny

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Danny
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posted 09-19-2001 05:13 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Danny   Click Here to Email Danny     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Ox, I am sorry to keep you waiting but I've been working overtime this week.
When I said not to deter from my instuctions, I didn't mean you inparticular. The 6.5:1 pedal ratio was in '78 only, because of the need to overcome the fulcrum linkage which would result in lack of foot pressure to the booster without it. In '79 they eliminated the fulcrum linkage and therefore returned to a more typical 3:5 (nominal) pedal ratio. Speaking of boosters, I corrected an error I made concerning the '79 F350 boosters and added a bit more info on that topic.
I said I turned down the pressure two turns on my adjustable proportioning valve. The valve needs to receive full hydraulic pressure thru the inlet and you adjust the pressure out to the rear brake calipers. (This is why you need to "gut" the combination valve.) I turned it down two turns because I was locking up my rear brakes too easily on hard stops.
On the combination valve, the front section is the metering valve only, for reasons I explained in my article. Residual pressure valves are never used on disc brakes UNLESS the master cylinder is mounted below the centerline of the calipers such as on street rods. Reason is, fluid will drain back into master cylinder without the residual pressure valve. There is not a range between 2-10 psi. 2 psi residual valves are used with disc brakes. 10 psi ones are used with drum brakes to counteract the stiff return springs from fully retracting the brake shoes, which pushes fluid back into master cylinder. Some master cylinders used a residual pressure valve in the rear port. But contrary to popular belief, 10 psi or less is not enough to prevent the calipers from releasing, considering it takes several hundred pounds of pressure to apply them to stop a vehicle. If you have four wheel disc brakes, (and obviously the master cylinder is mounted above the calipers) residual pressure valves are absolutely unnecessary! Think about this the next time you're using a c-clamp to compress the piston on the caliper to replace brake pads.
Cross drilled rotors have been improved greatly since they were first introduced. One of the major problems was they used too many holes that were too big and caused cracking. The holes do aid in cooling the rotor and maintaining a clean pad to rotor surface because they provide an escape route for contamination. There are alot of cheap imitations being produced, but I used quality rotors and have the best experience with them. I will purchase them again when the time comes.
About the calipers, I did not say they had the same degree of braking, I said they possess the same clamping force-which is an enormous increase over stock Bronco calipers. You are absolutely correct that the dual piston caliper can use the same clamping force over a wider area, thus "gripping" the rotor a little better. You'll need that advantage with the increased weight of those eight lug axles, which by the way, is justified by an extreme hard-core enthusiast such as yourself.

------------------

Danny Cabral

[This message has been edited by Danny (edited 09-28-2001).]

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OX
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posted 09-20-2001 09:13 AM           Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote

Still a little confused about your pedal ratios. You said;

>What's important here is called pedal ratio. >It is found by measuring the distance from >the pivot point (fulcrum) to the power >booster rod attaching point. (dim. A) Now >measure the distance from the power booster >rod attaching point to the center of the >brake pedal pad. (dim. B) Simply divide dim. >A into dim. B and we get a pedal ratio of >5.5 to 1 for a '78 Bronco.

So lets say the booster rod is directly between the brake pedal and the top pivot. According to your formula, it would be a 1:1 ratio. Surely a 1:1 ratio would be the booster rod right on the end of the brake pedal??? The way I see it the ratio would be the entire length vs the distance between the pivot and the brake booster rod.

----pivot to pedal----- pivot to booster rod
78 15.75 2.25
79 13.5 4
80+ 13.5 3.5

------pedal ratio

78 7
79 3.5
80+ 4

Fulcrum outside firewall on 78's acts to reduce ratio.

78 fulcrum is 2.5/4.75 = .526

Overall 78 pedal ratio is 7 X .526 = 3.11

This all sound right to you?? I can't see any difference between the "booster" part of 78/79, 1/2 ton brake boosters. My guess is ford decided in 79 that they would sacrifice a little pedal travel to gain better braking with less foot pressure since more and more "non-truck" people were buying bronc's (more woman maybe??). In 80, they introduced the dual diaphr. booster on all models, but it is odd they increased pedal ratio again since the booster could now do more of the work and I'd think they would have wanted a little less pedal travel (or at least not more than 79's).

Also, could you tell us which brand cross drilled rotors you got and the cost if they are the only brand that do not crack.

One more question on the boosters also. Do ALL of the dually boosters from 78/79 require a MC that has a different mounting bolt pattern than the stock booster??

Thanks

OX

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Danny
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posted 09-20-2001 02:52 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Danny   Click Here to Email Danny     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Ox, I stand corrected on the pedal ratio formula. I looked it up in one of my brake books and dimension B is the distance of the pivot point to center of pedal pad. This gives you a pedal ratio of 6.5:1. I thank you very much for pointing this out because I pride myself on being as accurate as possible. I edited my article. I also found out that there were many different pedal ratios on these trucks. One of the differences was automatic verses manual transmissions. I pulled the rubber pedal pad cover off, and I noticed it read MAN TRANS. I have checked the V.I.N. before and my Bronco has an automatic transmission from the factory. A friend of mine has a '79 Bronco and his pedal reads AUTO TRANS, but his is a manual transmission from the factory. Ford is known for doing weird things like this. Keep in mind I meant pedal ratio at the pedal only, not actual pedal ratio at the booster. I wanted to deter people from modifying their pedal arm. Ford did this in the 80's by increasing the pedal ratio which led to better braking at the expense of a spongy pedal (too much mechanical leverage).
As far as boosters go, I didn't mention anything about it being a dually, just '79 F350 2WD or '78 F350 4WD. These two vehicles use the same master cylinder. I don't know about the dually master cylinders, as it didn't apply to me.
The rotors were identified in the article.

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Deadman514
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posted 09-20-2001 03:42 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Deadman514   Click Here to Email Deadman514     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Quick question: I have a 78 -don't know if it's an early 78 or the later one with the 79 pedal/linkage. What should I look for to be sure I have the 78 pedal (I'm ordering the booster and MC tonight (hopefully)).
Thanks -Great article -have any pics of the front caliper lines?

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Danny
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posted 09-20-2001 06:09 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Danny   Click Here to Email Danny     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
The '78 fulcrum linkage is a Z-shaped linkage located in the engine compartment behind the booster. It is an integral part of the mounting bracket. In '79 the pushrod from the booster is much longer, connecting directly to the brake pedal arm without the fulcrum linkage. I provided the part numbers and the names of manufacturers for every single component you'll need in my article. Glad to help!

[This message has been edited by Danny (edited 09-21-2001).]

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Campster
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posted 09-20-2001 06:23 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Campster   Click Here to Email Campster     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
I think it would be great to turn all this into a techpage, maybe even with pics??

The brakes on my '79 are okay, not the best but better then I originally expected.

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cletus
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posted 09-20-2001 07:40 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for cletus   Click Here to Email cletus     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Danny,

A couple questions:

1)
Would it be very difficult to switch the '79 pedal linkage for the '78. I am putting a 460 w/tall valve covers in my '79 and I don't want a body lift. I also want to upgrade my brakes (looking for a 2birds/one stone project).

2)
Can I do just the booster/mc swap until I can switch the rest? I might be able to change calipers, but rear discs are just too much $$$ for me right now. Would this even help outside of clearance issues? If it won't hurt my current braking situation, I'll go for it to set-up for later.


Thanks Danny,
chris

Great article though!

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Paul E
Team PJB
posted 09-23-2001 02:12 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for Paul E   Click Here to Email Paul E     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Wow!!! Great article.

I just saw one thing that might need to be pointed out! It is illegal to use compression fittings (as described in plumbing a T-bird caliper) on a hydraulic braking system. All lines should be inverted flair for safety reasons and for compliance with the law.

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Paul E
Team PJB
posted 09-23-2001 02:42 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for Paul E   Click Here to Email Paul E     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Another thought......

I wonder if you could use a GM or a Dodge brake line with the T-bird caliper on a Bronco D44 axle? Anybody know?

Hmm... just using T-bird calipers, D60 wheel cylinders, and SVO MC should (in theory) greatly improve braking efficiency, should it not?

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Danny
Member
posted 09-23-2001 07:33 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for Danny   Click Here to Email Danny     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Paul, those brake line fittings are NOT compression fittings. They are #3 AN adapter fittings specifically designed for brake use. (See an Aeroquip catalog-my set up is much stronger than OEM.) All of my steel line connections are double flare, as required by law. I built my entire Bronco myself and passed my state of CT DMV inspection the first time! This is nearly impossible because the DMV inspection is very strict.
The SVO master cylinder does not fit the F350 tandem booster. (The SVO 1 1/8" bore is larger than needed, which delivers less pressure but more volume.)
I said the Thunderbird caliper never used a banjo bolt, the flex hose threads directly STRAIGHT into the caliper, therefore it would hit the upper ball joint on our Dana 44. Also the caliper's 7/16-24" inlet is a very unusual thread, for which there is no banjo bolt available.
You can do this upgrade one step at a time, but the booster and master cylinder must be done together because they fit together.
-----------------

Danny Cabral

[This message has been edited by Danny (edited 09-23-2001).]

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Paul E
Team PJB
posted 09-23-2001 10:41 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for Paul E   Click Here to Email Paul E     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
My bad on the "compression" fittings. I don't have an aeroquip catalog and the way you described them it sounded like a compression fitting, which I have heard of people using in the past with disastrous results. I was just confused

Another note on the calipers....... did you ever look into what kind/type of caliper the newer Ford trucks use? Might there be another caliper out there with same clamping force as the T-bird calipers but would accept the Bronco (or similar) brake line?

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cletus
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posted 09-23-2001 04:01 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for cletus   Click Here to Email cletus     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Danny,

Would it be very difficult to switch the '79 pedal linkage for the '78. I am putting a 460 w/tall valve covers in my '79 and I don't want a body lift. I also want to upgrade my brakes (looking for a 2birds/one stone project).

thanks,
cletus

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OX
unregistered
posted 09-23-2001 10:03 PM           Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Danny;

When you say tandum, you are talking about the booster, not the F350, right?? Also, if the SVO MC is too large, why is it used with 2.78 in dia calipers on the Mark VII??

Paul;

Ford trucks used the mounting system we have, then switched to a set of "pins" that are more or less 2 seperate sheet metal corners of a box (looking from end view) and have rubber between the two metal parts, and then switched to true floating pins (bolts). Not sure exactly which year switched to what on each different ford truck.

Cletus;

Yes you can switch the 79 to 78 linkage, but you must switch the large inside firewall bracket that bolts to firewall and holds up steering col. Also must switch brake pedal. Overall pedal ratios are so close, I don't see any reason to do it unless you want to run tall valve covers.

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Danny
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posted 09-24-2001 02:35 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for Danny   Click Here to Email Danny     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Yes, the term "tandem" refers to the dual diaphragm booster, not the F350 truck itself. It is called a tandem booster in the '78-'79 Ford shop manual.
The reason Ford used a 1 1/8" bore master cylinder on the SVO Mustangs and Lincoln Mark series is because these vehicles weren't as heavy as the F350 truck. It was acceptable to deliver a little less pressure in exchange for a short, firm pedal. (Keep in mind the SVO master cylinder does not fit the tandem booster.) Alot of this brake criteria is directly relative to vehicle weight.

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OX
unregistered
posted 09-24-2001 10:23 AM           Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Well, then I have another question;

I've already figured out overal pedal ratios for 78 and 79 broncos. 78 is 3.11 and 79 is 3.5. Lets assume you put 200 lbs of force on the brake pedal. For 78 that would be 622 lbs of force to booster rod, for 79 that would be 700 lbs of force to booster rod.

Now SVO MC piston surface area is .994 sq in and F350 MC is .887 sq in. Lets assume a 3:1 "boost" ratio (guessing??) of F350 tandum booster. Using 78 booster rod forces and assuming we use the F350 tandum vac booster, we get 1875 PSI line pressure for SVO MC and 2103 PSI line pressure for F350 MC. Now in 79, we get 2112 PSI and 2367 PSI, again respectively for MC's.

If you are saying the F350 MC is optimum for a 78, then the SVO MC would be optimum for a 79 (almost identical line pressures between the 2 combos, 2103 vs 2112), since the pedal ratio is higher and the larger MC compensates for the increased 79 pedal ratio. Obviously the SVO MC does not fit the tandum booster, so it is mute point in reality, but theoretically, the F350 tamdum booster can not be optimum for 78 AND 79????

Now the 90 F350 dual diaphram booster I used is as large in dia as the stock booster and as long as the tandum booster you are using *(largest F350 booster I have seen on any year). I have to assume, do to it's significantly larger volume, that it would provide greater assist than the F350 "tandum" booster. Since it should provide greater assist, I don't see any reason it could not be used with a slightly larger MC and allow less pedal travel with the resultant same line pressures with idenatical foot brake pressure.

Fitment issues aside, wouldn't you rather have a larger booster that could provide more assistance and allow the use of a larger MC to keep pedal travel to a minimum IF you could get the same line pressures using the same amount of foot pressure??


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OX
unregistered
posted 09-24-2001 10:28 AM           Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
PS Cletus:

I take back what I said about pedal ratios being close between 78 and 79. Now that I have run the numbers (see above post) there is a significant difference between the ratios. About the same difference as using either a 1-1/8 dia or 1-1/16 dia MC's.

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Danny
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posted 09-24-2001 03:03 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Danny   Click Here to Email Danny     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
OX, the '79 pedal stroke is not long enough to justify the use of a 1 1/8" master cylinder. If you use the 1 1/8" master cylinder, then you just eliminated the mechanical leverage advantage of the 3.5:1 pedal ratio. This is why Ford didn't use a 1 1/8" master cylinder in '79. In theory, you would be right, "IF" you were trying to achieve the same line pressure as in '78. This is not the objective. The '79 pedal ratio & linkage is better than the '78. Ford eliminated the '78 fulcrum linkage in '79 because they wanted an improvement, so don't cancel it out by using a 1 1/8" master cylinder. But like I said, most people can't "feel" the difference to justify a change in master cylinder size.
Now as far as the even larger '90 tandem booster, you bring up an excellent point. This tandem booster is slightly more powerful than the '78-'79 tandem booster and has a tad longer stroke. Well, guess what? Ford finally did switch to the 1 1/8" master cylinder because it was justified (to shorten that tad longer stroke). The increased booster power output is greater than the lack of line pressure the larger master cylinder provides. Now do you see what I mean?
To answer your last question; yes, I would have used the larger 90's tandem booster and master cylinder "IF" they were a bolt in. But it isn't, and the '78-'79 tandem booster and master cylinder is more than powerful enough to upgrade a Bronco's brakes. (Not as heavy as an F350 truck.)
I wish you could drive my '78 Bronco to experience the increased braking capacity. Hey OX, sounds like you and I could engineer one hell of an overkill brake system! Ha! Ha!

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OX
unregistered
posted 09-24-2001 04:48 PM           Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Just curious, what year did they go to 1-1/8 MC. The guy I know that wrote the brake upgrade article for his 89 Bronc used an 89 F350 MC/booster combo and said he measured 1-1/16 for the MC.

Also, I had to drill a hole 1/2 inch higher than the hole in the 79 pedal to get the booster rod to have a straight shot out of the bootser. Amazingly :-), after drilling this new hole, the pedal ratio (and even the 2 distances that make up the ratio) is the same as that on my 95 F250. I wonder if my 95 F250 has the 1-1/8 MC??

Would love to drive your bronc, sounds like you still have better brakes than I.
To recap, I have;

1. The 79 pedal setup redrilled to 4:1 pedal ratio which is the same as 80+
2. 3/4-1 ton twin piston front calipers.
3. Gutted prop valve
4. 90 F350 booster
5. SVO-1/18 MC
6. GM 3/4 ton rar disks.
7. 77 rear eldorado calipers.
8. 6-SS brake lines.

Only thing I have not done is gutted the front valve in prop valve and/or added adj rear valve. The 90 F350 booster and swap from 78 to 79 (80+ really) booster linkage made a huge difference, but it still sounds like you have better brakes than I, when mine should overall be substantially better. I will have to try getting rid of that front valve and see if it makes much of a difference.

Thanks for the great thread!!

PS, next we have to talk about swept area, heeheehee!!!!!!!!

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muddinmike
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posted 09-24-2001 06:56 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for muddinmike   Click Here to Email muddinmike     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Is there a readers digest condensed version of this! For us plain folks out here.

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Danny
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posted 09-25-2001 02:28 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for Danny   Click Here to Email Danny     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
OX, I did some investigating and found out that Ford started using the larger bore master cylinder when they increased the tandem booster size in '88-'89. Your '95 F350 should definately have the 1 1/8" master cylinder.
Although I have greatly upgraded my brakes, it sounds like you still have the sronger brake system. But I'm wondering what size tires are you running?

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OX
unregistered
posted 09-25-2001 08:46 AM           Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
I had 38.5 SX's, but then I lowered it and put 32's on it as I want to take it for inspection without having to go through the tilt test we have in NJ. So, right now it has virtually stock tires.

My F250, which has approx 32's on it and weighs in about 1600 lbs heavier than my bronc has awsome brakes even though their braking systems are very close (slight edge to bronc with rear disk, but those 10.25 rear drums are also massive). If I compare this modded bronc with my other bronc that has stock braking system, the modded one is a huge improvment though.

One thing that helps alot is the fact that ford truck braking systems went to true floating pins in the 90's. Compared to the older clamp on (what we have) and rubber filled pins, it is defintely a big improvment. Keeps the caliper from rocking in it's holder during braking (which in turn would **** the brake pedal and not apply even braking force). I doubt this one change would make the F250 brakes be that much better than the bronc though.

At least I'm on the right track, as before that booster swap, you could push as hard as you could with both feet and the brakes just sucked, now I can at least lock up 32's. We'll see how they are when the 38.5's go back on.

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Danny
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posted 09-25-2001 01:34 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Danny   Click Here to Email Danny     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
OX, I've got a couple of questions for you. Did you mean stainless steel flex hoses, if so, are all your flex hoses braided stainless steel? With the kind of pressure you're delivering with that enormous booster you will definately need the braided stainless steel flex hoses to ensure all that pressure actually is used at the caliper.
Our '78-'79 Bronco's don't use the rubber filled pins. We use the H shaped shim with a flat spring. This was a better design than the rubber filled pins because it kept the caliper tight on its mount. Like you said, we don't want the caliper to rock.
When you "gut" the metering valve, you will only improve normal brake applications. The metering valve is bypassed under full brake pressure (panic stop). This is also why you need to pull the bleed rod outward when bleeding brakes. The function of the metering valve is to balance the actuation of the disc and drum brake system. This means the metering valve holds off pressure to the front disc brakes until the rear drum brakes over power the return springs. The metering valve is only for normal braking applications. In a panic stop, the full hydraulic pressure bypasses the metering valve because both front and rear brakes apply instantaneously.
Your 38.5" tires have overwhelming mechanical leverage over your brakes. This is like saying your tires have the advantage. The one ton 8 lug axles also weigh alot more, however I realize you had to perform this axle swap. This may sound silly, but check your plumbing for any restrictions or kinks. By the way, I don't think you will need the adjustable proportioning valve with tires this large because it's only adjustable from 100 to 1000 PSI. I hope this helps you.

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OX
unregistered
posted 09-25-2001 07:10 PM           Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Yes, braided SS flex lines. I have Superlfit SS lines from frame to axles and Earl's DOT approved SS lines from axle to calipers (VERY expensive!!!, about 250$ for 4 lines).

Yes, I know we do not use the rubber filled pins. What I was describing as being better than what 78/79's have is what they started using in the 90's. The 90's truck calipers have true floating pins, like you see on most cars with a bolt that threads into the caliper bracket and the caliper rides on this bolt. Due to design and general wear over the years, the 78/79 type calipers are always loose. I had one so loose (on my white muddin bronc with 44's, which also has 1 ton front brakes), the H bracket was actually popping out and the caliper would drag against the wheel. This happened 3 times before I welded an extension piece onto the H-bracket and now all is well.

Maybe I will just not do the front prop valve mod if it only helps with moderate braking. I already gutted the rear part of valve as I knew that was the important part with rear disk.

As for the 38.5's, my biggest bronc with 44's stops pretty decent for tires that are 200 lbs each. It has 1 ton fronts brakes and 1 ton rear chevy disks, again using caddy calipers and all 6, SS braided hoses. It also has stock 78 pedal rod setup, booster, and SVO MC. My point here is that the green bronc should have 1000 times better brakes (especially right now with 32's on it) than my big white bronc and I don't feel they are. Maybe my green bronc does have a hard line problem somewhere (internal rust maybe???). I have checked them and they do not seem pinched anywhere.

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Danny
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posted 09-26-2001 02:37 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for Danny   Click Here to Email Danny     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Well OX, it sounds like your problem is in the combination valve. The metering valve (front section) to be more specific, is probably clogged or frozen. It's very common with these 22 year old combinaton valves. When I first bought my Bronco I had to buy a new one (before I did the brake upgrade) because I couldn't even move the bleeder rod! It was rusted outside and clogged inside. To check if it's working properly, just have someone step on the brakes and see if the bleeder rod moves outward. I think you should at least take a look and flush out your fluid and replace with DOT 4. Also, I hope your engine is pulling about 18 inches of vacuum for the booster to work well. Good luck!

[This message has been edited by Danny (edited 09-26-2001).]

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OX
unregistered
posted 09-26-2001 08:47 AM           Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Nope, comb valve is brand new, got it from ford less than a year ago. I replaced it as I had nothing left to replace, cept hard lines.
At this point, I'm fairly happy since I can at least lock up the brakes. Just gotta find a carb that works off camber or EFI that works (at all :-)), get inspected and lift er back up and I'm pretty much done.

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Dennis B. Frasher
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posted 09-26-2001 10:44 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Dennis B. Frasher   Click Here to Email Dennis B. Frasher     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Hey Guys

Absolutely great discussion on the brake issue. I have a question for any or you. I have a 79 F150 and I have/had the same type of brakes you guys have had. I'm very interested in this update, probably do it exactly as Danny described. Question: Do you see any reason this upgrade would not work on my truck???? I appreciate your thoughts and comments. Really informative discussion from all of you.

Thanks, Dennis.

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Danny
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posted 09-27-2001 02:20 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for Danny   Click Here to Email Danny     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
The '78-'79 Ford F150 and Bronco used the same brake system. Go for it!

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histrung
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posted 09-28-2001 12:01 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for histrung   Click Here to Email histrung     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
I have a questions concerning the rear disc brake upgrade. I've seen kit's for the F150/Bronco which I'm assuming will come with 1/2 ton stock like brake stuff, now if I'm upgrading to 1 ton the rear brakes will be the weak point. So, where would be a place I can get a disc brake upgrade using 1 ton brake stuff that will fit my Ford 9" rear and how much will that cost.

I also have access to a Dana 60 out of a 79 F250 that I could use, the only problem is that it uses 16" wheels. I could then use the money that would buy the disc brake stuff and put that towards a HD44 front axel. But then I have to get 16" wheels and of course I'd HAVE to get those 38.5 Swampers that have been calling me in my sleep.. ha ha..

But seriously folks...

Will the stock axels be strong enough and should I just stick with the getting the disc conversion (where to buy, how much?? etc..) or go for the whole shabang and replace the axels (which would have the bigger brakes to handle the new booster/Master cylinder.??

Thanks
Russell

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histrung
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posted 09-28-2001 12:08 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for histrung   Click Here to Email histrung     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
oh. one other thing.

on the hardware for the front calipers, would you post the conpany's and their respective phone numbers/website so I can order them.

Thanks
Russell

------------------
"Get your stinkin paws
off me, you damn dirty
ape!"

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OX
unregistered
posted 09-28-2001 09:03 PM           Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
You can use 15", 8 lug wheels on a D60 (even with diks if you get the right backspacing) and I don't think a 9" with 38.5's and a locker will hold up. I blew up 3 of them before going D60 and had no more problems till I got 44's. Even then I only broke axle shafts.

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histrung
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posted 10-01-2001 01:54 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for histrung   Click Here to Email histrung     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Danny posted

"":A word of caution; this kit only fits the "new style" Ford 9" housing ends. (3.56" X 2" bolt pattern)""

concerning the upgrading of the rear drums to the SVO disc brake conversion.

Question.. How do I know if I have the "old" or the "new" style? What specifically do I look for?

Thanks
Russell

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Danny
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posted 10-01-2001 03:43 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Danny   Click Here to Email Danny     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
The "new style" Ford 9" end housings refer to the 4 bolt flanges that retain the axles. There are actually 3 different bolt patterns. The first is called the "Small Ford" (3.375" x 2" - circular with flat top) with a 2.835" bearing diameter. These were not used on our '78-'79 Broncos. The next is called the "Big Ford" (3.5" x 2.375" - circular with flat top) with a 3.150 bearing diameter. The last one is also a Big Ford (3.150 bearing diameter), but is called the "New Style" because of it's 3.562" x 2" bolt pattern. It is also the only housing flange to resemble a rectangle with round sides. Simply measure the bolt pattern to find out which one you have.

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histrung
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posted 10-01-2001 10:53 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for histrung   Click Here to Email histrung     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Thanks alot Danny, you've been tremendous with helping.

One last question (I think, hope). Ordering the SVO disc brakes for the rear, I would get that from Ford, I assume, Does it have everything I'd need to convert besides the proportioning valve? What else would I need?

Thanks.
Russell

ps- I'm thinking of naming my truck after you!!!

------------------
"Get your stinkin paws
off me, you damn dirty
ape!"

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Danny
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posted 10-02-2001 02:38 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for Danny   Click Here to Email Danny     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
No, don't order it from Ford because you'll pay too much. Order the SVO Motorsports kit #M-2300-G from Summit Racing. This kit will not include the adjustable proportioning valve (Ford SVO part #M-2823-C or any aftermarket one as they're all identical), parking brake cables (I reused mine by just forming a loop at end-worked well) or flex hoses('96 Ford Explorer or aftermarket braided stainless steel) because everyone will accomplish these tasks differently. This conversion kit works wery well, it's just not complete because it fits a variety of vehicles.

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Dennis B. Frasher
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posted 10-04-2001 08:00 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Dennis B. Frasher   Click Here to Email Dennis B. Frasher     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Hey Guys
I don't know what anyone thinks about NAPA parts but that's where I have shopped for years with no problems. I just went in a bout the first of the big stuff. The guy was very helpful, and amazed also at what would fit what, we even compared the calipers from a 73 T-Bird and stock calipers for my F-150. Anyway, here is the NAPA part numbers for the exact same stuff Danny suggested. This is for a 1979 upgrade. The booster was manufacured by NAPA United, part Nr. 54-73350 which is the A-1 Cardone Nr as well, probably made by Cardone and sold to Union, Cost $152.99. The invoice printed out that this booster and Master Cylinder was for a 1979 F-350, 300 CID / 4.9 L In Line 6, no power steering. Next the matching master cylinder. When he punched the Wagner number F97938, that Danny gave us, it cross referenced to NAPA Union part Nr. 39116, which is a perfect match, cost $78.69. Next the calipers. I gave him the King Part numbers and he could not match them. I ask specifically for calipers to fit a 1973 T-Bird. These are NAPA TruStop part Nr. 242-4000 for the left side and and Part Nr. 242-4001 for the right side, cost $14.99 each side. Again we compared a stock caliper for my 79 F-150 to the T-Bird caliper and it was identical except for the larger piston and the size of the brake line hole. Exactly the way Danny described in his first article. I appreciate all of the articles on this subject. I hope this hleps someone that goes into a store where the guy behind the counter wasn't as helpful as my guy was. Thanks a ton to you Danny, for all of the time, energy and effort you put and continue to put into this project for all of us, a sincere thanks.
Dennis

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Danny
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posted 10-05-2001 02:31 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for Danny   Click Here to Email Danny     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
You're very welcome! With those components alone, you will feel a significant increase in braking. If and when you convert to rear disc brakes, you will be completely satisfied with the stopping power. Thank you!

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FatChanceSlim
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posted 10-05-2001 04:34 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for FatChanceSlim   Click Here to Email FatChanceSlim     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Danny - If I go ahead and replace the booster, MC, and front calipers and hold off on the new rear disks, while I am at it, is there any reason to not go ahead and gut the metering/proportioning valve as you describe and put in the Wilwood adjustable proportioning valve as long as I have the brake lines disconnected anyway? Then later, when I do put in the new rear disk brakes, just readjust pressure for the new rear disks? Or, if I just do the front first, should I leave the metering/proportioning valve as is? Sounds like bleeding would just be easier without that bleeding rod to hassle with.

Thanks for all this great information!

[This message has been edited by FatChanceSlim (edited 10-05-2001).]

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Danny
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posted 10-05-2001 05:40 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Danny   Click Here to Email Danny     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Yes, you can "gut" the combination valve now, as long as you replace it with the adjustable proportioning valve. Good idea! I also understand that most of you want to put some thought into which rear disc brake conversion kit you like best. There are so many kits on the market for the 9" Ford rearend. Here are the names of several companies who offer rear disc brake conversion kits:

Stainless Steel Brakes
Bear Brakes
Wilwood Brakes
TSM Brakes
Master Power Brakes
Currie Enterprises
Aerospace Components
Jeff's Bronco Graveyard
Dynatrac
Ford SVO Motorsports

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Mudman78
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posted 10-05-2001 06:40 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Mudman78   Click Here to Email Mudman78     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Question?.....I'm putting a D60 (drum) and D44HD in my Bronco (78). What booster, M/C, prop valve combo should I use?

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Danny
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posted 10-05-2001 07:13 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Danny   Click Here to Email Danny     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
The only difference for you will be to use the F350/250 combination valve. The other alternative to this would be to "gut" your Bronco combination valve (as instructed in my article) and use an adjustable proportioning valve. I would do this instead because it is cheaper than a F350/250 combination valve and the Bronco combination valve will still serve as a junction for the four lines that couple to it (without cutting & flaring). Use the correct F350 booster and master cylinder (as outlined in my article) because the dual piston calipers you will be using have the same "piston area" as the Thunderbird calipers (as outlined in my article).

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bigb
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posted 10-08-2001 04:38 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for bigb   Click Here to Email bigb     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
I am just so confused guys I have a stock bronco and I want to make my brakes better.I am jst lost in this post man danny can you brake it down in nimrod terms for me, I.E a pars liost and what not I;m lost

hey wheres the door?

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Mudman78
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posted 10-08-2001 05:26 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Mudman78   Click Here to Email Mudman78     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
How do you confuse bigb?
Put him in a round room and tell him to sit in the corner.

hahhahahahahaha.....I'm just kidding man.

The article confused me a little too. We should all just convert to magnetic driveshaft retarders and do away with the brakes all together.....who's with me?!?!?!?

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Mudman78
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posted 10-08-2001 05:28 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Mudman78   Click Here to Email Mudman78     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
UH OH.....I can feel Paul's tractor beam pulling me off the board already.

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muddinmike
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posted 10-08-2001 05:38 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for muddinmike   Click Here to Email muddinmike     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
I'm with big b on this one

How about "Bad @ss brakes for dummies"

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Danny
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posted 10-08-2001 07:11 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Danny   Click Here to Email Danny     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Ok, just give me some time and I'll write a short version of my article. Are you guys serious? My article is well detailed and very explicit in terms of what to do and how to do it. It isn't mandatory to understand the math or theory, just reference the part numbers and do it. Glad to hear your smart enough to want bad ass brakes, but we could do without the profanity. Ha! Ha!

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Allen Morrow
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posted 10-08-2001 11:12 PM           Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Will the rear disk kit you mentioned the ford motorsports kit work on a 76 9 inch rear??
Allen

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Danny
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posted 10-09-2001 02:15 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for Danny   Click Here to Email Danny     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Like I said before, you'll have to measure the end housing bolt pattern to find out if it will fit your '76 9" Ford. The Ford SVO Motorsports kit is for 3.56" x 2" end housing bolt patterns only (new style).

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OX
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posted 10-09-2001 11:30 AM           Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Danny

Maybe a summary of parts only for stock axles (your article) and then a "deviation list" for different axle combinations. I could help out with what is avail for axle combos you have not messed with. I agree though that if you are keeping stock axles/5 lug setup, the article is pretty straightforward and just picking out part numbers is simple. I'd guess though that many are either changing axle components and/or too lazy/poor to change all the components.
Maybe a 3rd short list of bargain basement brake upgrades for stock rigs, like;

1. F350 rear wheel cyls.
2. Upgraded/high quality front brake pads.
3. 78/79, F350 booster/MC.
4. Gut prop valve and get rear adj valve.

This list can be done one at a time and although you have not touched front calipers, you have changed rear cyls' and the bigger booster should give you enough extra pressure to work smaller front calipers until you get funds/ambition to swap out the front calipers and/or go rear disk/bigger rear drum setup. I know people who have done #1-3 only previously to this whole topic and reported a huge difference in braking. Deadman told me he got the F350 booster @ R & S for around 100$ (surprisingly, in stock too!!), so this whole change can be done cheap.



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bigb
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posted 10-09-2001 12:11 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for bigb   Click Here to Email bigb     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
I'm just dumb.

I have A.D.D really bad guys.

I can't read this whole post and make sense of any thing.

I just want better brakes.

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FatChanceSlim
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posted 10-09-2001 02:02 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for FatChanceSlim   Click Here to Email FatChanceSlim     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Do you not understand how the brake system works or are you just having trouble understanding the instructions? Do you know what the booster, MC, metering/proportioning valve, calipers, etc do? It would be easier to help explain if we knew that your confusion was about how all the parts in the brake system are supposed to work in the first place or if you just don't understand Danny's instructions on how to upgrade them.

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Deadman514
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posted 10-09-2001 02:07 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Deadman514   Click Here to Email Deadman514     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Woah OX! I said it was in stock -I didn't say I picked it up -My dumb @$$ wanted to save a couple bucks -so I ordered it through Carparts.com -I called to track my order and they said 3-5 weeks -what kind of cr@p is that?!?!

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toddz
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posted 10-09-2001 03:00 PM           Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Allen Morrow:
Will the rear disk kit you mentioned the ford motorsports kit work on a 76 9 inch rear??
Allen

Allen: the only Early Bronco rear ends the Motorsports kit will fit are the 74-75 medium-duty(aka Torino) housing ends.

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bigb
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posted 10-09-2001 03:57 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for bigb   Click Here to Email bigb     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
oh I know the parts it's just the confusion of all the post and what not.

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OX
unregistered
posted 10-09-2001 03:59 PM           Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
So what did you end up paying for the MC and/or the booster??? Gonna have your rig done by holloween weekend??, we doin sum mudin :-).

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Danny
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posted 10-09-2001 06:16 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Danny   Click Here to Email Danny     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Ox, I would appreciate any help you can give other members.
I will personally endorse any advice Ox is willing to submit. Ox has proven to me that he possesses a thorough knowledge of the brake system and has experience to substantiate it. Thank you.
(For anyone's info, I don't know who Ox is - this isn't a conspiracy. Ha! Ha!)

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Deadman514
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posted 10-09-2001 06:25 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Deadman514   Click Here to Email Deadman514     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
I was charged $111 for the master/booster and two F-350 wheel cylinders _and they finally got here today. As far as mudding goes -the only way my rig will be 4 wheel drive by that time is if I swap the rear for a 3.50 rear. How does that sound with 38s to you?
By the way Danny -that F-350 MC/booster is a work of art -I'll be installing it tomorrow (hear that Mudman -get ready ).

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OX
unregistered
posted 10-09-2001 06:55 PM           Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
That is a pretty good price, does it look like you got the right stuff??

I ran my green bronc with stock 3.50 gears, stock 351M, auto trans and 38.5's rear, 36's front, welded D60 rear and LR up front in D44. It did pretty good in low range hammered down :-). With a 514, you should have no problem in low range.

OX

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Deadman514
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posted 10-09-2001 07:55 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Deadman514   Click Here to Email Deadman514     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Looks like the right stuff. Sounds worth a shot. I'll try to have it done by then.

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cletus
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posted 10-09-2001 10:21 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for cletus   Click Here to Email cletus     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Deadman,

where exactly did you get these brake parts for so cheap? I really want to know, 'cause I need some new brakes. Include part#'s, and $$ if you can.

Just checked carparts.com and it said $43.35 for m/c (wagner # F97938) and $172.46 for booster (A1 cardone # 54-73350). I didn't check wheel cylinders. Hopefully I'm doing something wrong. I also don't know what R&S is.

thanks,
chris

p.s. I'm sure everyone would like to know the best prices around; sounds like you got 'em.

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Deadman514
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posted 10-10-2001 11:24 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for Deadman514   Click Here to Email Deadman514     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
When I ordered it it was $182.85 for the booster and master -with no core charge. Strauss wanted about $110 for just the booster with a $40 core charge. Carparts was cheaper when all was said and done. They say "ships within 1-2 days" but when I called the woman said "there's a disclaimer on the website" and that it would take 3-5 weeks!
It took two weeks and they only charged me $111.06 for the master/booster and two wheel cylinders. Who knows what happened.

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bigb
Member
posted 10-10-2001 12:08 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for bigb   Click Here to Email bigb     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Caroaprts suck's like that

pulled the same back order crap when I needed parts for my RAM

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OX
unregistered
posted 10-10-2001 08:56 PM           Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
182$ is closer to the prices I got (actually lower than the prices I got) a while back for the F350 stuff. That is why I went through all that effort to get the newer booster in (100$ for booster and SVO MC). The 79 F250/F350, 4WD's have a 1-1/16 MC that fits the stock booster (or the 90 F350 booster), so even if one wanted to go with a MC along the lines of the article, it would still be possible with the booster I put in.

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Danny
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posted 10-11-2001 02:40 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for Danny   Click Here to Email Danny     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Carparts.com is too expensive. I paid $130 for the '78-'79 F350 booster and master cylinder at my local Acme auto parts store. (I think Deadman got such a good price because someone at carparts.com screwed up.) The Thunderbird rebuilt calipers only cost me $40 for both sides (also at Acme auto parts store) and the fittings & braided stainless steel flex hoses were about another $60 at speed shop, Jegs, Summit Racing or where ever you guys buy your aftermarket performance parts. If you do the upgrade one step at a time the cost is not that bad, besides everthing bolts in. Good luck.

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Deadman514
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posted 10-13-2001 06:14 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Deadman514   Click Here to Email Deadman514     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Is it possible that the new tandem booster will slightly compensate for the loss in line pressure that the larger bore MC will cause? This being with the rest of the system stock.
I just did the booster/master yesterday and I have much better brakes. I thought it may be in my head -but the guys at the parking lot noticed it without my telling them about the brake work.
One note: make sure you have the correct fitting IN HAND before starting the project. I thought they were easy to find. I went to six different auto parts/brake repair shops and NO ONE had the fitting. Finally had to call Mudman -AGAIN. Napa seems to have a reducer you can use if you aren't up to flaring the line. I did find the fitting and Mudman flared the line for me.
Next week I'll put the new F-350 wheel cylinders in (with Mudmans help)-so I'll let you know how that goes.

Hey Mudman -if we don't start working on yours man -I'm gonna have to sneak over there and do the work myself! I'm tired of working on MY truck -I want to get YOURS on the road .

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